tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33889889.post1539406567639021925..comments2023-06-16T06:27:31.555-07:00Comments on qunfuz: Rant against Hypocrisyqunfuzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07381648516025592849noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33889889.post-24219320818820564302009-05-28T12:37:39.323-07:002009-05-28T12:37:39.323-07:00Qunfuz,
Your last reply was somewhat rushed and t...Qunfuz,<br /><br />Your last reply was somewhat rushed and therefore a little bit cryptic. Something I always fail to understand is why the Arab side dismissed the option of simultaneously rejecting the partition plan and not starting a war. i.e., negotiate. Based on what I read, and the Arabs will never admit, it seems like belligerency was the only acceptable means for conflict resolution in Arab society, at least at that time. I agree that the Arabs had a casus beli, but thankfully governments don’t wage war each time they have a cause, they instead try to find a peaceful solution, especially if they know that they are likely to lose, which the Arabs could have known if they were willing to consider things rationally. To summarize going to war was both justified and reckless.Yossi Rumyalhttp://1r1f.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33889889.post-67197339147901499612009-04-26T05:56:00.000-07:002009-04-26T05:56:00.000-07:00Yossi - a). I more or less agree with you. Palesti...Yossi - a). I more or less agree with you. Palestinian guerilla attacks started first, after the UN partition vote. According to Avi Shlaim, the Arabists of the Jewish Agency downplayed the military danger of these attacks and called for political flexibility, but Ben Gurion and the Haganah called for hard hitting reprisals, and got their way. Once Palestinian resistance had been broken and the exodus of the refugees began, the Arab League committed Arab armies.<br />So the chain of events was Jewish immigration and agitation for a state - Partition plan - Palestinian guerilla attacks - Zionist massacres, expulsions and dispossessions of Palestinians - entry and defeat of Arab armies.<br /><br />quote from Begin: "In Jerusalem as elsewhere we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive..Arabs began to flee in terror..Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter."<br /><br />b). If I had been alive in 47 I would have supported war against the Zionists. I agree with the Arab Higher Committee that the partition plan was "absurd, impractical and unjust." The allocated Jewish state contained an Arab population equal to the Jewish, and most of the Jews were recent immigrants. The vast majority of the land there was under Arab ownership. Were there other alternatives? Surrender, which I don't approve of. <br /><br />c). Before hostilities started a secret plan had been worked out between Golda Meir and the British-sponsored King Abdullah of Jordan, by which Israel would take 78% of Palestine and Jordan the West Bank. But if the Arabs hadn't 'started the war' - but I thinkj that ultimately the Zionists started the war by claiming Palestine for their state, the Palestinians were fighting in defense of their land and future - then the Zionists would have had to have done so if they wanted a Jewish state.<br /><br />have to take kids out. to rushed to do this properly. but Zionism began as a secular movement, so an anarchist's redefiinition of the term sounds acceptable (and more than acceptable to me. It's important work. Get to it! If you could come up with a definition many Israeli Jews could sign up to ,and many Arabs wouldmn't have a problem with, you'll have made a breakthrough.<br /><br />Read Ali's book. My book is not published in the US, but you can order it (probably at great expense), from Amazon.co.uk. Out in paperback in the UK this week.qunfuzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07381648516025592849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33889889.post-60835567076692916912009-04-26T01:31:00.000-07:002009-04-26T01:31:00.000-07:00Qunfuz-Robin,
I am not sure whether Buberian Zion...Qunfuz-Robin,<br /><br />I am not sure whether Buberian Zionism ever stood a chance with the Eastern European crowd of Zionism. But I’d like to ask you what is your opinion about 47. The version of the history I’m familiar with unequivocally says that the Palestinians were the ones that started and were on the side with the initiative in the civil war. At the same time, Arab armies said they are preparing to invade the country. So my questions are <br />(a) are you assuming a different version of the history with respect to the civil war?<br />(b) assuming you agree with my version of 47, do you think that the Arab side had other choices rather than starting a war?<br />(c) do you think that had the Arabs not initiated the civil war, then the Jews would have done so?<br /><br />Thanks for volunteering me for re-defining Zionism but I’m really not up for the task :-) Not much of a Jewish and actually quite an anarchist at heart. But I may do it just for fun. Haven’t read Ali’s book yet, but I have seen recorded talks by him. He’s a very impressive person.<br /><br />BTW, is your book available in America?Yossi (AKA Rumyal)http://1r1f.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33889889.post-12778434636879117312009-04-25T10:22:00.000-07:002009-04-25T10:22:00.000-07:00Qunfuz,
I think we're on the same page with respe...Qunfuz,<br /><br />I think we're on the same page with respect to "Zionism" vs. "Zionists", but just to make it perfectly clear where I stand I want to mention that it's practically impossible for an average person in Israel to not be a "Zionist" as he is brought up believing that being a Zionist is synonymous with being a normative and contributing member of society. This may also imply that in the quest to defuse Zionism it may make more sense to rebrand the term, then to fight it head-on, but I'm not sure about that.<br /><br />Regarding "tunnel vision", sounds exciting if you can make it into Israel and report your experiences. I hope they don't give you too much trouble in the airport, but it's likely they will (and I apologize for that). You should be golden once you make it through the airport. I am not saying you won't encounter things that will shock you, you certainly will (I do every time), it just that you'll see a more complex picture than can be described as you put it above:<br /><br />"...Those Palestinians who currently hold Israeli passports (but not for much longer if Israel’s fascist foreign minister has his way) are concentrated in deprived zones, intimidated, kept out of all coalition governments by Jewish agreement, and their houses demolished...."<br /><br />If you get to see enough, you'll see that discrimination doesn't apply all the time, to everybody, everywhere. A lot of the discrimination is around land use, and pits suburban Jewish expansion against rural Arab communities. However if you live in Haifa or go to a university, then the story is very different. There is also the general question of class discrimination in Israel. A lot of the Mizrahim are also "concentrated in deprived zones", and of course the question of built in limiting factors in traditional societies, that in many cases may be more limiting than government policies. In some cases it's hard to tell cause an effect or to sift through conflicting narratives. e.g., narrative A: the government discriminates against Arab municipalities, this results in deep antagonism, people start evading taxes and the communities become bankrupt and disintegrate. Narrative B: traditionally, rural Arab community NEVER pay taxes, in Israel or in any other Arab country, and hence they have smaller budgets. etc.Yossi (AKA Rumyal)http://1r1f.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33889889.post-91732118598477549992009-04-25T05:55:00.000-07:002009-04-25T05:55:00.000-07:00Thanks for visiting, Yossi-Rumyal. Of course, this...Thanks for visiting, Yossi-Rumyal. Of course, this was a rant. I write this kind of thing in order to express anger. Here I wanted to distinguish between generalised Jew-hatred, which I oppose, and specific Zionist-hatred, which I deliberately don't apologise for.<br /><br />I recognise that there are historical reasons for Zionism, just as there are for fascism, wahhabi-nihilism, the Saddamist version of Baathism, and so on. In my earlier post on Finkelstein and Gandhi I explained that by Zionism I mean the Iron Wall ideology that has come to dominate. Those Zionists who want a cultural or religious homeland in Palestine on terms of equality with the Palestinians could be allies.<br /><br />As for my 'tunnel vision' being cured by seeing the reality on the ground, I don't know. I have friends whose hatred was ramped up when they visited and saw. In any case, I may have an opportunity to see very soon (watch this space).<br /><br />I don't think the crimes committed by Arab forces in 47/ 48 are in any way comparable to the ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the Zionists, first because the Zionist Plan D was carefully planned and organised, second because the scale of the cleansing of the Arabs was so much greater, and thirdly because (and I do think this is of the utmost importance) the Palestinians were trying to defend themselves - occasionally stooping to pointless excess - from foreign invasion, while the Jews were the invaders. (I know some of those killed were native Palestinian Jews, and this is a tragedy). Yes, ethnic cleansing was an inevitable consequence of the situation, but, to take an extreme analogy, the Holocaust was also an inevitable consequence of the German situation in the 30s and 40s. The Iraq war was inevitable, and so was Hiroshima, Cambodia's Year Zero, and so on. This doesn't mean we forgive and forget.<br /><br />When 94% of Israeli Jews support the war crimes in Gaza, when Zionism played such a key role in the Iraqi tragedy, it is very difficult for me to have sympathy for the majority of Zionists. I think it may even be morally wrong for me to do so. But I do recognise they are human beings, and when this brand of Zionism has been discredited, I hope we'll all live together happily.<br /><br />It's because I think it is important to discredit the Zionist ideology that I rant in this way.<br /><br />I also think the resistance needs to offer a vision to Israeli Jews which includes them in the future of Palestine, as the ANC did to South African whites. I wrote about this in my post called Four Solutions.<br /><br />I agree with you about the Arab Jews. I blame Zionism for their plight, but of course I blame simplistic Arab chauvinism too, especially in Iraq. (Syria is a somewhat different case).qunfuzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07381648516025592849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33889889.post-56663459110973828582009-04-24T22:04:00.000-07:002009-04-24T22:04:00.000-07:00Qunfuz,
Strong post, and I identify with the majo...Qunfuz,<br /><br />Strong post, and I identify with the majority of what you wrote, even though at times you have a little bit of "tunnel vision" typical of somebody who's not actually seen the complexities and subtleties of things in the ground in Israel/Palestine. I'm just back from a visit in Israel and I have noticed I've been doing this too.<br /><br />You are of course entitled to your rage against "Zionists" but in my opinion it is not justified to talk about the collective of Jewish Israelis in these terms, of deep hatred, even though they would identify themselves as "Zionists". Basically, once you assume two basic premises about human beings, things become more clearer and far less emotional. The premises are:<br />1) People will escape persecution. And,<br />2) People will create and adopt ideologies that will make this feel just and moral human beings.<br /><br />The Jews in Eastern Europe were persecuted and they fled to anywhere that took them. Some of them went to Palestine. Anywhere they went, they adopted an ideology that allowed them to view themselves favorably. Those that went to Argentine---became Argentinean patriots. Those that went to America---became normative Americans. Those that went to Israel, became part of a European colonialist movement and they adopted the necessary views to make them normative members of this society.<br /><br />With this snowball in motion, the friction with the Arabs was inevitable. In 47-79, both sides practices ethnic cleansing, they didn't even think that there should be any other options. The (few) Jewish settlements that were conquered by Arab forces had very few survivors. Ethnic cleansing was an obvious consequence of the situation and looking at it differently is ahistorical. Once this was done, the Jews were obviously very content, but even if we examine the (ahistorical) scenario in which they would have let the Arabs back, it would have likely only prolonged the civil war and created more casualties on both sides. Since then, the sides are slowly coming to learn their limitations of power and nobody knows how things will end. I of course do hold the political leadership of our peoples accountable for their exacerbation of the situation but the MACRO processes are just a force of nature, like bird migration or ocean currents.<br /><br />One Nakba that is both totally transparent to everybody and at the same time very relevant for Jews and Arabs (unlike the Jewish-European Holocaust, which as you correctly note, shouldn't be a factor in Arab-Jewish relationships) is the Nakba of the Arab Jews who were betrayed by everybody and deprived of their nationality, property, dignity, history and tradition. But nobody counts us because we have moved on in our lives (no matter how root-less our lives are since those events).Yossi (AKA Rumyal)http://1r1f.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33889889.post-10954879055859455152009-04-24T03:52:00.000-07:002009-04-24T03:52:00.000-07:00http://the-word-well.com/on-work-and-freedom-for-h...http://the-word-well.com/on-work-and-freedom-for-holocaust-remembrance-day-and-durban-ii.html<br /><br />u might be interested to read this..<br />i can never see how any human being- including the israelis- doesn't understand why a Palastinian is holding a gun!مترجم سوريhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14891500987490712802noreply@blogger.com